“This is Noisy”, exploring cultural histories through sound
A conversation with Ojibway experimental artist Zoon
It’s always worth going along early to a music gig to check out the support act.
My first time seeing the successful Ojibway experimental artist Zoon was when they were supporting Canadian Broken Social Scene’s front man Kevin Drew when he was in Galway touring his solo record ‘Aging’. Drew is also a producer and part Arts & Crafts record label owner, I posted a review of that night here.
“Zoon” the artist previously referred to as Daniel Monkman before they totally embraced their Ojibway tradition in their music and their full name Zoongide’ewin. The Ojibway are an Indigenous people in Canada and the United States who are part of a larger cultural group known as the Anishinaabeg. Zoon grew up on the Indian reservation called Brokenhead Ojibway Nation.
We chatted briefly after the show that night and in the subsequent months, have being corresponding by email. They were difficult to get a hold off. After a period of incommunicado, I didn’t realise they were traveling through South America at one point, but we eventually got past the stop/start emails and got around to nailing down a time for a proper follow up conversation. I was grateful to Zoon, who considers themselves as an indigenous dude just making some experimental music, for being generous with their time as they have multiple different projects on the go. Zoon’s latest record release comes from one of those projects with the band Ombiigizi, with Status/Non Status (Adam Sturgeon) where they explore their cultural histories through sound, and I have been playing their record ‘Shame’ A LOT! 😍🎸. Incidentally, this is their second album that is also produced by Kevin Drew.
“boozhoo Daniel”, my awkward attempt to say hello in Ojibway and break the ice.
“Thank you so much for having me and these days, I go by my indigenous name, which is just Zoon. I’m trying to phase out Daniel, but some people know me as just Daniel. But all my native friends, it’s just Zoon. It’s just like, yo, Zoon! What’s up? You gotta come to here…. So it’s interesting. You know? It’s like, it’s just my part of way of decolonizing everything.”
We spoke about their latest album, and collaboration with the guys, Ombiigizi, whom I managed to successfully pronounce with my Galway accent.
“Oh, I think you’re the only person ever to say it right. Thanks. But Yeah. I think even Kevin Drew, who produced it, doesn’t know how to pronounce it right.”
I mentioned to Zoon how much I’m enjoying their record, especially when I’m listening to it on headphones. There are 3 tracks that stick out in my mind. I got lost in “Photograph” where I just felt that I went into a type of dream sequence when listening to that song, the 2 other songs being “Laminate The Sky” and “Street Names and Land Claims”.
I asked about the recording process and if they enjoyed making that album
“Yeah. It was an interesting album. Usually, Kevin is like always watching us and just kinda behind us and calling the shots of what we should be doing. Not necessarily all the time, but just like he’s a producer, and a producer’s job is to really,kinda guide the session and make sure that we’re not wasting a lot of time on things that don’t work. And this album, we walked into it kinda knowing that. But we also walked into it very confident, because we recorded the first album with Kevin back in 2022. And then from 2022 to up until the time we recorded this album, I had done so much with bunch of different artists and learned so much about recording and writing on my own and collaborating.”
I commented that they were also nominated for an award for that first album.
“Yeah, Yeah, For sure and same with Zoon too, that first year, it was just like every year, Ombiigizi put out a record, we would get nominated. Zoon would put out one and I would get nominated for something. It was just like this, and everyone was just like, oh my god… when’s it gonna stop? And it finally has because none of us are gonna put out a record this year.”
But hopefully, you have plans maybe to tour with that album?
“Of course. Yeah, right now, we’re just struggling with the management side of things of like figuring out where not to waste, where to take risks, and where to not take risks. Because in the world that we live in, it doesn’t take a Pitchfork review to send you into the stratosphere anymore. It’s more like going on TikTok. It’s like that kinda new thing, and we’re not those kinda types of people right now. Well, we’re trying to be more like that”
Following on, I asked about how do they find being an artist in 2024. As I have read a lot of comments from different music people from everyone from Joni Mitchell to Moby, to Anthrax’s Charlie Benante, talking about the struggle to get people’s attention in this modern age.
Especially when the younger generation are totally absorbed in social media and if it was a struggle to attempt to build up a fan base organically?
“Organically, not so much. I don’t know which band we’re talking about, if it’s Ombiigizi or Zoon, because Zoon doesn’t really struggle. I step my foot in, like, the fine arts world and you know I have an exhibition coming up where I’m building something with Raven Chacon and a collaboration with Sonic Youth’s Lee Ranaldo, And so there was a book that was put out, and it was reviewed by New York Times and it’s gonna be up for, like, 2 years. And my music, Zoon puts out a record, and it stays on top of the charts for, like, 7 weeks straight.
And with Ombiigizi, we do struggle to find our audience. Even though we are playing really cool things, really cool sounds, you know, playing our hearts out as a band.”
And that energy and emotion comes across in their new record, ‘Shame’. I added that I particularly liked in certain tracks such as “Street Names and Land Claims”, where elements of traditional First Nations music and culture come through, with the subtle chanting towards the end of that song.
Zoon mused, “Yeah, Of course, And it’s so funny because that was like our Nirvana moment where we just kept repeating something. And it’s actually just English. You know?
It’s “way high up”, like,“way high up, you go” And I got us to, like, maybe once in a while change something such as gibberish so people just would think that it was speaking our language. But I at first intentionally was let’s just do our language. But then when Adam was improvising, he just did that. And then we were just like, man, that’s it.
But that’s an interesting question, we’ve been doing a lot of press for this album and you’re the 1st person to bring that up, which is, like, really exciting that someone at least notices some that.”
Ahead of the interview I was researching, reading up on the Ojibway culture and commented to Zoon that those cultural influences such as the physical landscape, nature, ecological matters, must seep through into their music for names and themes of songs, for example like “Oil Spills”
And yeah, exactly You know? The most exciting part of it all is a lot of people who interview us, they’re like, are you afraid about being in a box? And I’m like, actually, I think, in our defense that we’re part of the indigenous crowd that isn’t in a box. Actually, we’re like that weird tesseract where it’s like a a box within a box showing the 4th dimension. I was like, we’re actually that kind of box because we’re introducing new genres. Zoon is doing moccasin gaze and honest grunge with the new record that I did with Broken Social Scene and Lee Reynaldo that will come out in a, like, a year or so and Ombiigizi, is just a continuation of that. You know, I would call it, art rock or edit rock because we edit a lot of things and piece it together. And that’s kind of our genre for that band. It’s called EDIT ROCK. And I think sometimes Adam kinda gets a little defensive of it. Like, oh, but it’s cool and I always try to reinforce them. I’m like, this is our thing. It’s cool. Don’t worry about it.
But isn’t that the the fun of being an artist, not to be put in a box?
“Exactly” they said “So, like, when people say that I’m just look at us… We’re not like the indigenous people in Canada who just play country or folk, you know. Like, we’re reinventing a lot of things. We’re, like, living in the nineties. There’s no other reason why Lee Reynaldo from Sonic Youth would be taking time to work with us or with me. He told me one time in a session, “I do a lot of art stuff that just, you know, I choose to work on projects that I think are innovative and are pushing the envelope.”
I totally respect that. I thought from listening to Ombiigizi, that the translation to English which is “this is noisy”, was doing a bit of a disservice though, because it’s not just “noisy” to my ears at least.
“it’s so good that this current album and that noisy thing comes from our culture too. It comes from when you’re a baby and you cry because you can’t speak, so you cry. You’re like, oh, I need something. And so, the mother comes and nurtures, and usually, they stop crying You know? It’s just their way of communicating. And our way to communicate with the creator is to play loud music and to send our message to the people on our Turtle Island” (referring to the Indigenous name for Earth)
I was thinking when they mentioned about the translation “this is noisy”, I thought of a friend of mine Laura Balboa who is a media artist, linguist, radio producer from Mexico but who is now living in Sweden. She conducts independent research into experimental music and sound with many indigenous musicians and artists from Latin America on her radio show called “Bulla” , which has a special focus on Mexico and its connection with Latin America. Bulla translates into English as some thing like noise, a racket but it really means “noise, collective sound and togetherness” which has a different type of meaning and that’s kind of what you’re alluding to as well?
“This is Exactly Yeah, Right? Like, noisy has 2 different meanings for us You know? One is just a simple cry to the creator that we’re here, and we’re doing our thing. And we’re alive and strong and trying to set up for the next 7 generations, because that’s part of our culture. It’s like, we can only do what we can do right now. And what that is preparing the next 7 generations, so creating something that will last 7 generations. And we think that by creating these two new types of genres of music, actually, 3 that, our music will just, influence up until then our poetry or the installations that I do in the art world, and just anything else that we do.”
I loved that, because something that I’ve also learned in the research I was undertaking for the interview is that the Ojibway as a tribe are keepers of the faith, keepers of the archives, in songs, memory, texts?
“Yeah. Definitely. We’re an oral traditional, culture. So, everything has to be passed down orally. We’re just like we just wanna keep the planet safe.”
But I can understand as well from the Ojibway culture how they would be so in tune with nature and the seasons. Especially for example their relationship with the birch tree, how that was so pivotal to their means of traversing the landscape as the bark provided the raw material for their canoes.
The Ojibwe people moved westward along the Great Lakes because of a prophecy that they were to go find “the land where food grows on water.”. The Ojibwe traveled the lakes in their birch bark canoes, staying close to the water as they migrated and established camps. — blog.nativehope.org
I’ve been to Canada, but I’ve only traveled on the west coast in British Columbia. From Vancouver the furthest east I got was to a small town called Penticton. When I examine the map of Canada and see how far as a tribe the Ojibway used to move and migrate, I mentioned to Zoon it’s difficult to fully process those distances.
“I know, even vast just to drive! ” Zoon replied “and what people don’t realize is that it was the settlers that brought over horses. We never had horses back then, we just we used the river systems.”
And that comes back to your relationship with the birch?
Yeah. “Birch bark, paper trails” we like to say, on our set list.
We got more serious for a moment, discussing a few things that appeared in popular culture that I wondered how they felt about. I watched 1923, the prequel to the western show Yellowstone. I enjoy watching Westerns, neo-Westerns with the big skies and fabulous landscapes. But I wasn’t expecting such a shock from that 1923 show because there’s an unexpected story line of a young indigenous woman character “Teonna Rainwater” played by Aminah Nieves, an indigenous actress. The character goes through a hellish journey to escape seriously violent beatings by sadistic nuns and priests. It’s pretty disturbing.
Speaking to Zoon on it, they hadn’t seen the show. But what I told them is I just couldn’t fully grasp, how the residential schools went on to as recently.. as up to 1990s?
“Yeah, 1996. All my family went to it except for me. And I explained in interviews that I’m the first person out of my generation to not attend these schools, but I’m the first generation to have to deal with it. Because the Canadian government just kicked them out. As soon as they turn 18, they’re just like, okay. You’re out of here. They just would give them the clothes that they were wearing, kick them out of there. Not even give them money for a bus ticket home. And they usually have to walk until someone would pick them up and be like, hey. Where are you going? They’re like, well, I’m just trying to get back to my reserve. And they would go back, and it wouldn’t be there sometimes. It’d be just completely devastated by poverty. A lot of people would just be sad and devastated that their children were just taken by these things called the Indian agents. Like, imagine that. Imagine someone just coming first into your house and being like, you have no rights. We’re gonna take your children, and they’d be checking floorboards. It was like the holocaust.”
I was familiar with the old Australian policy of forced child removal and the forced assimilation, Australia since issued an apology in 2008 to the Aboriginal people. But I didn’t understand how big an issue it was for indigenous people in Canada. The violence that was issued upon their culture with the residential schools, which were institutions mostly run by religious orders that were used by the Canadian government for more than a century as weapons of assimilation on indigenous cultures. Canadian music legend, Gord Downie front man of the Tragically Hip took “The Lonely Death of Charlie Wenjack” story and turned it into the “Secret Path project”, which included a solo album, a graphic novel and an animated film to bring awareness to the plight of the indigenous peoples.
“I know and that’s the movie I wanted to make based on that story of that, boy running away and end up dying in the cold, you know, trying to run away.”
That violence experienced by indigenous people comes through in other art forms such as the painting by a Cree artist, Kent Monkman called “The Scream”, which is equally as disturbing and hits close to home.
This painting reminds me of similar, violent tones of an oppressive imperial force during the evictions of The Great Famine years that Irish people endured. There is another incredible painting of an Irish eviction during the Great Hunger by Danny Howes.
We discussed Ireland having an affinity with the First Nations people with both having been colonized by outside powers, the example of the special forged relationship with the Choctaw and the subject of linguicide, the death of a language from political causes which rings through to Zoon.
“Yeah. Definitely. I mean, Zoon has a song called “A Language Disappears” and it’s on my new album, the one that I just put out. It’s all about that, just like the scarcity of our language. There’s like 58 fluent speakers in our language…It’s crazy.”
“So that’s why Ombiigizi is named our band the name it is. And that’s why I’m changing my name because people just gotta start learning the language. I learned English, I’m speaking it right now, same with you. And so, everyone’s learned someone else’s language. Now it’s time to slowly learn ours, as I like to say.”
We moved back to more general conversation again and I inquired about where they now consider home. Is Winnipeg your current home, I asked?
“Yes, I was living in Toronto, and I was lucky enough to have been saving money forever. And then a miracle happened having a song in a movie that I was just like, okay. Where do I spend? What do I do with this money? Kevin Drew’s dad is a business manager for Broken Social Scene. And he was like, talk to my dad immediately. And then his dad was like, okay. Buy a house, but put 50% down, and then the rest, put inside this account that is tax free, and we’ll just collect over the years. And I was like, okay. So, I’ll do that. And then, you know, slowly but surely turning this into, like, a home studio right beside me.I got my board all right here inside there. Yeah. You know, it’s a 3-story house.”
Winnipeg is basically just right smack, bang in the middle of Canada. We chatted about how some of the writers from The Simpsons come from the city and often left in some gags in the show, poking fun at their hometown.
“Yeah. Nice to get references. And now it’s like, we’re from Winnipeg. What’s your excuse? And then it should say, because it’s the most affordable place to buy a home in all of Canada.Because in Toronto, I tried to look and it’s like all $3,000,000 for houses like this.”
The city gets a bad reputation for it’s severe winters, with nicknames like “Winterpeg, Manisnowba” and Zoon confirms how cold it is, “It’s snowing outside right now, It’s freezing. Yeah.”
But the city does get great summers, I asked.
“Summers. I mean, you get I can’t get over how warm it gets during the summer. Oh, gosh. I mean, it really saves me a lot of money for the expenses for hydro, but for like heating and stuff. ”
The conversation rolled along, I was enjoying the conversation and Zoon spoke more about touring Ireland. On their recent tour date in Cork, actor Cillian Murphy came along to the show.
“Like, I tour Ireland, and I remember seeing this interview with Cillian Murphy. And this person was like, and you’re from the British colony and he’s like, no, Ireland. And the guy’s like, yeah. Isn’t that like Northern Europe, like British. And he’s like, no. No. I’m from Ireland. And I was from knowing him now watching that interview, I’m just he’s very proud of being Irish.”
I mentioned jokingly, he’s proud of his blue eyes as well referring to a past interview that Murphy gave on Today Fm’s Dermot and Dave show. While residing in Galway for a play at The Druid Theatre, Murphy used to enjoy “fish ‘n chips” in a local restaurant. On one occasion in the restaurant, an elderly lady kept staring at him and he was trying not to pay any notice, but she kept staring at him. He continued eating until she suddenly just got up and walked over to him, looked him dead in the eye and said “they’re not that blue” and then proceeded to just walk off without muttering another word.
“So probably I’m gonna bring that up to him next time I see him. I’m supposed to do this art residency with him next year with some lady who has this big facility, and I’m gonna talk to him about that.”
“And it’s so funny. The whole night I was calling “Cill -ian”, and then he had to stop me. And he’s like.. Daniel, it’s Cillian. I was like I was like, well, you gotta take this up with the Internet because every goddamn thing says Cill-ian”.
Cillian Murphy does seem like a genuine great guy and he also has a passion for music, hosting a radio show for BBC6. My favourite quote of his is from an interview he gave in the Irish Times. It was the response he provided to one question on why does he think people still want curated things such as radio shows, given that, in theory, everyone can find anything they want online now? “I think you can feel the time and the creativity and the thought that’s been put into the selection, you can feel how much the person putting it together loves music. And no algorithm can do that” -Cillian Murphy, Irish Times Nov 4th,2023
“He loves music. Almost, almost every famous person that I have met now, they all have been in bands. But, just like me, I’m starting to get into acting, and I have a movie to film in, probably, like, seven days in Toronto. All of this has started before I met Cillian and I’ll be able to meet him again and explain to him that I’m starting my own path into, that art world.”
I mentioned once bumping into Murphy when he was in Galway. We were walking down the lane outside the Druid theatre and he was just hanging outside, getting some air. I just said, “hey Cillian, how’s it going”? He was very friendly and down to earth. We bumped into him again later that same night in a bar and said “hey again!”.
“It’s so it was so embarrassing because Kevin Drew was just like, oh my god Cillian ..my friend Daniel, he’s gonna want a a picture with you and I know you don’t take pictures.
But I think it was like 2 weeks before Kevin, Broken Social Scene and Lee Ranaldo were my backing band for my new record And Kevin drinks 2 bottles of wine, and all of a sudden, he’s like, Lee, how much money are you making off Sonic Youth? ..Are you still making money off of them for all these years? And, like, asking all these personal questions. But little old me just wants a photo with Cillian.”
I can’t imagine Zoon resting easy any time soon with their recent creative output and they proceeded to inform me that they are actually in a third band too, with Lee Ranaldo and this group called the Medicine Singers!
“Yeah. I just really wanna pay off my house, and then, I can rest easy or something like that. I have like this vision in my head.”
Ahead of the call, I had learned the Ojibway greeting boozhoo! for “hello” and I mentioned needing to learn the native word for farewell/goodbye but Zoon informed me that they don’t actually have a word for goodbye, they just use “baamaa” which just means.. see you when I see you.
In Ojibway culture they truly can’t say goodbye to someone because that would mean they won’t see them any longer, and this gets into death, which can’t happen in their culture. Hopefully we will get to see Zoon again, along with Ombiigizi, Kevin Drew and the full Broken Social Scene lineup back in Galway in 2025.
